An interview with our keynote speaker . . .
During the planning of the conference, a few of us were privileged
to spend some time in conversations with Judith DeLozier. We spoke with
her about her role in the history of NLP leading up to her latest thoughts
on the field, her recent achievements, and a new book she and Robert Dilts are
writing. We invite you to join the conversation at
Tell us about the book you are working on
with Robert Dilts.
NLP has evolved enormously since its beginnings. The
third generation of NLP trainers, developers and practitioners is now moving
into the field, building on the work that has already been done. This
third generation is reaching further and higher, developing applications that
are generative, systemic and focused at even higher levels of learning,
interaction and development. These applications relate to identity,
vision and mission on the systemic level.
book will focus more on the framework of relational logic as opposed to logical
logic or conscious mind logic. Where we think about 'the field.' The body has a
generative impulse to be creative, a generative impulse to heal, and that comes
out of the core of us, more than our conscious mind which is relatively
limited. It's going to focus on the field between individuals and the idea of
bringing grace and beauty into the system beyond the individual, in order to
enrich others and the world. It’s been said that the energy of the universe
originates in the body and is generated as a field between bodies.
conscious mind is only able to understand linear thoughts and conscious
purpose. First Generation NLP had more to do with language and representations
in the individual. Second Generation had to do with levels of belief,
value. Neurological levels came in. First Generation had a lot more to do
with problem solving. Second Generation started to open the area of
generativity, creativity and modeling positive, successful excellence. It
became more future focused. The New Code that John and I did in the
mid-1980s was a transition. Perceptual positions started to develop, levels of
learning and some of that stuff. Now it's moving towards going back into self,
finding the dynamic balance in self and then bringing that to the field, to
really enhance the field. The body will play a key role, of course.
we are embodied minds.
exactly, not emminded bodies! Or perhaps both.
it's a dance between the inner and the outer.
that's right, that idea of the dance between all of it. The conscious mind
would make the statement "this relationship between the unconscious and
conscious" but I prefer the way Gregory Bateson talks about it where he says
it’s a "unit of mind," so that every pathway, every nuance in movement,
gesture, tone of voice change, all of that is mind that's being exhibited
because information is sent and that's the whole idea about what mind is. It's
the sending of information. Then you'll see mind in trees in the way they'll
send information to another tree to make a certain kind of chemical in the
leaves to keep from being eaten by the caterpillars or something. Mind is
eminent. It's eminent in nature and we are, for sure, nature.
of Third Generation NLP speaks about the break from the natural world and the
consequences of that. How very short a time we've had that break, and the very
long period of time that we lived in the natural world. People have a longing,
when they feel empty, not connected to the larger system any more.
said in our last conversation that the heart of NLP is in the presuppositions.'
Could you say a little more about that.
was being able to hold the presuppositions, at the heart, that allowed us to go
out and model. We had to hold the idea of "The map is not the territory,"
and "There is no failure, there's only feedback," and along those lines. That’s
the heart. The spirit is to go out and build models. If the breath of NLP is to
build models, what pumps the blood in that direction is the
presuppositions. Then you start to notice what it brings to you in your
personal life. It brings a lot of peace into my personal life, in my world in
general. Those were the effects of NLP that I noticed. All of us were out
there trying to create and build models that were helpful and useful in the
world. It's really the heart that it takes to breathe the spirit, you know.
also talked about applying NLP to social change and that being the direction
you were going in.
me it's always been about social change. My background was anthropology and
comparative religion. I first read Structure of Magic when John
Grinder gave it to me as a manuscript and asked me to read it and tell him what
I thought. Coming from a whole different reference focus, I just saw it as
evolutionary. I saw it as revolutionary as well but that had more to do with my
thought that people are going to hear "everything is wrong" when they read
this, as opposed to seeing it as another set of tools, but I saw it as
evolutionary much more than problem solving. Now I see it as being for the
benefit of individuals and groups, aggregates of individuals, how can we use
this to support social causes, social change, social development, cultural
understanding, things like that.
you have a sense of where a person can connect up to bring that out?
when I think about that, first I think about it as an individual. If my frame
is health, what's one thing I can do for myself that I'm willing to take
responsibility for. What's one thing I can do with my family that I can take
responsibility for, my community, my business, my workplace.
First of all, what you can do. You know I can plant a tree when I get to the
environment level. Then from that point on -- one of the things Robert and I
worked on at the conference last October was moving toward creating a
generative community and generative collaboration. It doesn't matter to me
whether it stays inside the field of NLP or whether it's people connecting with
other people, even outside the field, who are making contributions and asking,
"What resources do I have that can support their contribution and what
resources do they have that can support mine."
also mentioned the "200 to 2,000" project. Could you tell us about that.
wonderful friend of mine, Dr Patricia Novak, has worked in social change in
Chicago, and has always been a social activist. Her framework is bringing
health to the community.
now also a minister. She has a health ministry in Chicago. I have done
some projects in the past with Patti and also am fortunate enough to be a
coach, whenever she has projects. We get together and go through them, sort
things out, and talk about what NLP skills, might be appropriate.
of her recent projects was the "200 to 2000 Project." This developed out of a
degree program in holistic health at DePaul University. We envisioned five
different pathways that would reach into the community like the five fingers of
a loving hand, to create health in various sectors. The “fingers” would
include worksite wellness, through designing healthy organizations, churches
and schools, hospitals, supporting good public health policy and supporting
people in the parts of Chicago that were more ethnic, like the Latin community
or the Vietnamese community, to support the natural healers who were there.
“200 to 2000 Project” was this: Twenty women from the Latina community were
taught eight basic health skills (things like breast exams, stress prevention,
and so on). Each of those women taught 20 more women. So now that twenty
is ready to each teach twenty more women, and so on, to bring more health into
one she did was this: In her area of Chicago in the last few years there
were seven or eight deaths in the ministry, all heart disease and
diabetes. So she has created a project to pass on health skills to the
ministers. The ministers will pass those on to their
congregations. At the same time they're having somebody coming in to
look into environmental concerns that are not being met in the churches. These
things are very holistic and not hard to do!
can produce a million projects like that. She would say, "I can't do it without
the ‘dreamer, realist, critic’ model that I use all the time."
'dreamer, realist, critic' is one kind of model out of NLP. Is this thing
you're calling Third Generation NLP also about folding NLP back into the
that's an effect -- bringing the frameworks into our own personal lives. For
some people it's health. For some people it will be education. For some people
it will be the arts. Whatever your frame is, whatever you believe is important
to bring into the world.
all could be seen as health.
could. Creating a healthier world in general is the effect. And then there's
what we can do as individuals if we don't have the means to find an
organization or hook up with other people. There are people who spend
their whole day just making enough to live, but that person can do a healthier
thing for themselves and for their beloved, for their environment. We can do
things as individuals, and those of us who are better placed can make more of a
do you want to say about your keynote address at the upcoming 2006 IASH
don't know yet but it might be something that relates to health because, after
all, it is the IASH Conference. It might be health in the social sense, maybe
relating to the health of community or health of society, expanding our
horizons with respect to health.
We invite you to add your comments and join the conversation at
Judith DeLozier has been a trainer and co-developer of
NLP since 1975. A member of Grinder and Bandler's original group,she
co-authored fundamental NLP works, including Neuro-Linguistic Programming
Vol. I, Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson,
M.D. Vol. II, and Turtles All the Way Down: Prerequisites to Personal
She is currently an associate of NLP University with
Robert Dilts and continues to make major creative contributions to the field